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Back To BELIEFS OF THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH 

Bread or Wafer

or Both ?

To those who are part of the Western Rite, Welcome. This page tends to generate interesting comments.

Some do seem to understand that we actually are seeking honest objective historical truth. We actually do believe in the

records and documents of history. However, we don't simply "refer" to them without reading them, nor are we content

to take the word of others for most things.  As with other places on the website, we do make a simple request:

That if you CLAIM to be part of an OLDER established organized church, you should be prepared to have to

defend your position and use documentation that is OLDER than 150 years. For a church that claims to be

2000 years old, and claims this as a historical fact, that does not seem too much to ask.

How far back can you go ? Do you know the records of Greece or its history ? Can you share with us when

Greece became FREE from the yoke of the Ottoman Empire ? Can you tell us with accuracy, what the state

of the Patriarchate of Greece was in, during that time of Islamic Rule ? Do you know with certainty what

those Greek Orthodox in the earlier days were taught ? Do you have documents or books that would prove this ?

Those are the kinds of questions we ask and try to get answers to.

Obviously, the question is: to which Church are you claiming any kind of historical descent from ?

Now, if you simply wanted to belong to a church, and you feel a little bit "religious", and so now this

Western Orthodox is "your thing", then congratulations, and excuse us for having independent thoughts of our

own, that you happen to have stumbled upon.

For those who actually want to be connected to HISTORY and not simply an ILLUSION of History, then

don't let FEAR or Insecurity prevent you from thinking, considering some of these things, or trying to come up

with answers for yourself.  Our website is not fancy, that is true, but then we would think that those who are truly

Orthodox and who aspire to a simple lifestyle would understand that we have no interest in the EXTERIOR of man

or of the WEBSITE, but rather that we try to focus much more on the inside of a person.  The website is simply

a minimalist (and poor) way to accomplish a bit of this, nothing more.

It is interesting how people are proud to claim affiliation with a group or organization, until they are asked to

defend their affiliation or to explain what their basis is. Watch the insecurities mount as people truly reveal

the sad emptiness inside of themselves. They were just kind of looking for something fun, then someone

has to get "all serious" about it. So when anyone asks these days about the nature of personal commitment,

as in the example of "Please explain to us the actual basis for your faith, or the historic documentation you think

we do not understand or have not connected with yet", you can be sure that a Familiar motive of Insecurity

is going to cause those who don't have the answers, and who are not committed enough [to truth] to find them,

to be very upset at having to face their own Lack of Answers.

Is it worth remembering certain words in the New Testament :

Matthew 5

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought [something] against thee [you];

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
 

________________________

To ask questions is a good thing. To seek truth is a good thing. To believe that truth, actual objective truth exists is a good thing. To believe that truth exists OUTSIDE of ourselves, and whether or not WE agree with it, is a good thing.

To want to know truth and Historic Truth is a good thing. Those who truly believe both in their Church AND in the GOODNESS of their Church should Not have any fear from the records of history. If their Church truly is good and has done good things, then why be reluctant to show or demonstrate those good things by talking about the history of that Church ?

Just because other people ask questions does NOT mean that someone does not like you. It simply means that people are interested in MORE facts and MORE answers.  Those who are brave and have courage do not have fear.

If you really and truly believe that God guides your life in a personal and meaningful way, then what is there to be afraid of ?

On the other hand, if you doubt this, then maybe it is time to join us and also start to ask some of the challenging or interesting questions. Something that is worth believing should also be something worth defending.

We would never want to convert anyone to anything by force. We speak out for the rights of the Eastern Orthodox in whatever patriarchate they are in, all over the world. Do YOU speak out for the Human Rights of those who disagree with you ? Do you TRULY believe in the right of Free Speech ?

FoR THOSE NOT AFRAID TO THINK: By What Criteria ?

Sources of Information about the Eastern Orthodox Church

 We believe in Human Rights and in the right to THINK and in each of our ability to seek and pursue truth.  Those who are truly orthodox should not fear those things. 

The response frankly to this one page on the part of some Western Orthodox has been very un-Christian.

It is possible to disagree without being disagreable. It is possible to have conversations without hostility. And just because someone asks you for the reasons of the hope (about your faith) of the answers that are within you, that should never be any reason to become hostile to the person(s) who ask the questions.

God teaches us to love and reach out to others. We are the enemies of no one, and certainly not the Orthodox. But even if we were, the appropriate response is greater KINDNESS towards us by those who are Orthodox.

If you believe we are in error or at fault, then by all means, be BETTER than we are, and prove this by your reactions to us, whether on the website or by email or on other websites.

We do not ask for instant agreement, or agreement in anyway. But it is a FALSE orthodoxy that would suggest that meeting and treating those who have genuine questions of a religious or historic nature should be treated with Rejection and Hostility. If that is the kind of "Orthodoxy" that you have, then do you think that others will find that attractive ?

Obviously where we are right, then take what is good. And where we are wrong, then reject it. Obviously at the end, God will evaluate your life as to the accuracy of your decision, and you answer to Him personally, NOT to us.

From an Orthodox Website: 

At Eastern Rite parishes, the priest stands with the chalice, and the people approach one by one. In Western Rite parishes, the people are stationery, and the priest moves from person to person. Churches often have a rail around the altar, where the people kneel down and say their final pre-communion prayers. Some people may continue to kneel while receiving the sacrament.

The leavened bread—baked into a thin round wafer—is given first, followed by the wine. To receive the bread, form your hands into a cup, one on top of the other, and hold them out for the priest to place the wafer in. This manner of receiving communion was described by St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his 4th century work On the Eucharistic Rite: Make thy left hand as if a throne for thy right, which is on the eve of receiving the King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ… Other ancient sources prescribe this same method. For example, Canon CI from the Quinisext Council (692) states that …if anyone wishes to be a participator of the immaculate Body in the time of the Synaxis, and to offer himself for the communion, let him draw near, arranging his hands in the form of a cross… St. John of Damascus in De Fide Orthodoxa urges us to …draw near to it with an ardent desire, and with our hands held in the form of the cross, let us receive the body of the Crucified One.

Alternatively, you may open your mouth and the priest will place the wafer inside.

Source: http://www.westernorthodox.com/customs 

Western Rite parishes and missions in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America.

Here: http://www.westernorthodox.com/directory 

Maybe a few points about some of the young Eastern Orthodox is useful 

(What we think of many Eastern Orthodox)

7. We believe that most of the converts to Eastern Orthodoxy have almost no idea how to find Truth or how to find God. The general attitude that we find in those who write to us - includes the following:

- Eastern Orthodoxy is something I am trying out, 

- I will see how it makes me feel. If I feel good, then I will think it is good. 

- I will place my faith in my local priest, and put my trust and hope in his confidence in that Church. If HE believes it, then I will have confidence also, and I will take whatever is said...at face value without further questions. 

8.We believe that young Evangelicals and young Eastern Orthodox share a few things in common:

- a lack of understanding of how to do do real historical research. 

- a lack of understanding of how to differentiate historical sources (good ones from bad ones)

- an impatience for quick answers, which [ when it comes to God] tends to demonstrate a strong personal arrogance about what God "better do for you"...in the next few days

15. As to our motive, our motive is to get historic material into the hands of the public, to raise questions, to raise awareness, to engage in debates and conversations, to seek truth, and to learn from those who are willing and able to teach us, just as we try to pass along some of what we hope we have learned...to others.

Source 

As usual, there are a few who claim we don't know what we are talking about. Their comments only demonstrate that they have not done their own research. In the attempt to demonstrate our lack of knowledge, they demonstrate their own lack of knowledge. There is no substitute for accurate historical research. The issue here is one of Truth and accuracy. We previously raised these issues, but found that far too few Eastern Orthodox have the interests or knowledge to do historic research into the true Early Church. 

From an Orthodox Website:

"Non-Orthodox may also receive the eulogiae or pain benit. This is bread which has been blessed, but not consecrated (Eastern Rite parishioners may recognize a similarity to the Antidoron distributed at Byzantine services). Dating back at least to the 6th century, the custom of giving out blessed bread to non-communicants was prevalent in England, France and Germany. The English Sarum liturgy, an inspiration for the Orthodox liturgy of St. Tikhon, contains a specific prayer to bless the eulogiae. Western rite parishes use this prayer today. The blessed bread custom survived in some locations into the 20th century, but had largely died out until its restoration to the West through our Archdiocese's Western Orthodox parishes. It is a kind and helpful custom for today, since persons who do not share our understanding of communion might otherwise feel uncomfortable at not being able to receive the sacrament."

Source: How to Participate Without Receiving Communion

 http://www.westernorthodox.com/customs 

Remember we did ask the following questions:

Obviously, many of you understand the point about the questions below that we ask: It tells us something about you. It informs us about how much you have thought about these issues, how much you have studied the history of the Eucharist, how much you may have noticed the historical changes in the Eastern Patriarchates over the centuries, about this issue. Those who give us the benefit of the doubt and believe that we are sincere will try to answer the questions, first for themselves, and then maybe even for us. Those who believe that we are Not sincere, will simply presume that the questions are "rhetorical" not intended to obtain any answers.

The truth is that we are really seeking answers, and really wanting those who claim to be Eastern or Western Orthodox to help find those answers. But we refuse to simply conform to anyone' s orthodoxy, simply because they would CLAIM that they have the truth, without documentation. For that reason, we do ask for some documentation, and the older the better. 

Obviously if a Church claims to be very old, then what exactly is the problem with finding old documents that demonstrate that those practices have NOT changed through the centuries ?

How would your Orthodox friends answer the following questions: In the Eucharist, WHEN does the Bread and the Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus:

Now, you can understand SOME of the reasons WHY we ask these questions:

A. First because those who are [Eastern] Orthodox who claim to be truly so, should already HAVE the answer to these questions, and

B. So that those who are Not Eastern Orthodox would know what taking the Bread or Wafer at an Orthodox Eucharist/Communion moment could mean...for them

Some people actually insult us, simply for asking the hard questions. For wanting other to think, and for asking for help from others for what WE think, then apparently that means it is an act of ...nobility and christ-likeness to insult us, to demean us, to say mean things about us to others, to condemn us.

So maybe for some that is simply a tactic for a cop-out.

After all, it IS often easier to insult someone, than simply to think about what they actually asked and to spend a few minutes thinking of an answer or explaining your answer.

So for whatever reason, we can still be found at xofcbooks6@yahoo.com

"Non-Orthodox may also receive the eulogiae or pain benit. This is bread which has been blessed, but not consecrated"

In the section on the Eucharist above, Did you notice the sentence:

" The English Sarum liturgy, an inspiration for the Orthodox liturgy of St. Tikhon, contains a specific prayer to bless the eulogiae." 

oops, Orthodox Liturgy being derived from The English Sarum liturgy, from England...Hmmm

Kind of raise questions about VERIFIABLE lines of Succession and Historic Research.

Wafer...in the Eastern Orthodox Church ?

 Back to Prove It !

Free PDF - INSTANT DOWNLOAD - Registration NOT Required for this Specific Ebook

if any of these points have given you some ideas or thoughts for reflection,

 then maybe the stop was worth it.  

BACK TO

 BELIEFS OF THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH

BREAD-WAFER

Corrupted Lines of Transmission to the Orthodox Faithful

By What Criteria ?

Sources of Information about the Eastern Orthodox Church

Please Note: We do try to be accurate. If you see anything which you believe

Is not correct on our website, please do bring it to our attention.

Thank you

(XOFC Staff)

 If you Disagree 

I would like to know what took you away from from Eastern Orthodoxy, so we could have a constructive discussion

Core Universal Rights

The right to believe, to worship and witness
The right to change one's belief or religion
The right to join together and express one's belief

wafer - wafer - wafer - wafer - wafer - wafer - wafer - wafer - wafer - wafer -

hmmm...who would have thought

IF I Pretend its not true, will it go away ?